In this episode, we discuss how, for centuries, Christians have been WRONGLY programmed that a fellowship needs a pastor and that a church cannot be a church without this central leader figure. Jon Zens, an author, simple-church pioneer, and teacher, discusses the anti-biblical view and practice of pastors as leaders in a fellowship. Many believers today search for reality because they don’t find it in what calls itself church, the fatal assumption.

Jon gives them assurance that they are not wrong or crazy. Jon and I bat around this severe problem, which has laid the groundwork for many falling leaders today who crush people. The way “church” is conducted today is not God’s idea or design. We must be inspired to seek God about His vision and dig deep for the fortitude to accept it because we’ve become addicted to practices and understandings that cannot be found in the New Testament.